Akshay: Welcome to this special episode of The Gospel Coalition India Podcast. My name is Akshay and I’m with Arvind and Anand. All three of us are pastors and we are council members of The Gospel Coalition India, and we’re very excited to talk about the incarnation.
Akshay: All right, Anand, Arvind, great to be with you today! We are here to talk about Christmas and particularly something called the Incarnation. But before we get into the deep stuff, why don’t you tell us a little bit about what you thought about Christmas when you were a child?
What was Christmas Like for You as a Child?
Arvind: It’s good to be here. For me growing up, I grew up in Canada, and Christmas is a big deal. Everybody celebrates Christmas and of course, in Canada, it’s always a white Christmas. We don’t just dream about white Christmases; we actually enjoy white Christmases every time. And it was an exciting time, it’s family time, it is a time that we look forward to, in that sense.
But in terms of what is Christmas, of course we heard that it’s about Jesus and him coming down to Earth and so on, but it was totally focused on presents. It is completely commercial, materialistic, all the movies [are] about, you know, just the stacks of presents all around the tree for everybody. [It is] very focused on presents and exciting that way, more than anything spiritual.
Anand: For me to add to Arvind and Akshay is welcome to everyone who’s listening in. I hope you’ve been. You’ve enjoyed reading all the articles TGC India has been putting out. And this podcast, I hope, is a treat for you this Christmas. So welcome!
I have to be honest in saying that I, as I grew up, I didn’t really think about Christmas at all because I was not raised in a Christian home. And so I hardly ever thought of Christmas—it was just school holidays. That was it. But now as I look back, in one way, I’m actually thankful for that. Because every time I think of Christmas, I think of Christmas only with a great sense of wonder.
The first time I really celebrated Christmas was when I became a follower of Christ. So for me Christmas is always special, in that sense, because I didn’t really experience Christmas as a child.
Akshay: Christmas for me was a very strange experience. I grew up in a Christian family, but Christmas was a very disenchanting season. I never really enjoyed it; I felt that I was much more identifying with the character Scrooge, you know. He’s kind of grumpy throughout the Christmas season, and that was very much what I was. Like and uh, I think it was only much later in life when the Incarnation, that we’re about to talk about, started to become more profound in my heart and imagination and I really started to feel God’s nearness. So in a sense, the birth of Christ actually redeemed the Christmas season for me very strangely. That’s been my experience
What Does the Incarnation Mean?
We are here to talk specifically about the Incarnation. And I sometimes wonder, it must be confusing to people why theologians use big words to explain simple things. Well, not simple things, but true things. But what are we talking about when we talk about the incarnation? Could one of you tell us what it means, or both of you?
Arvind: Incarnation is a big word, of course, but I think it’s a very important word, it’s a very helpful word, it’s a very profound word. So I’m glad that theologians came up with this word. And basically, it means that the second person of the Trinity, that is the son of God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, while remaining fully divine and remaining God, retaining all the attributes of divinity. He added in human nature to his person. And so he became one person with two natures—human and divine, the perfect God-man. And of course, you know human [vs] divine—how do these things fit together?
It seems like there was a lot of discussion in the early church about how does this actually work? And you know, if we try to get into it, lots of different theories were put forth. That he’s two persons or that he’s one nature, or that he has a body, but without a soul or a spirit or a mind. You know, all these various permutations and combinations.
It was really in the year 451 in Chalcedon, when the council came together, and they stated what has become, in the last 1500 years or more, the classic statement theologically of the incarnation. Which is again that Jesus exists in one person, but with two natures—divine and human. These natures they don’t intermix, they don’t change one another. There’s a lot to say about all these things, but that does seem to make the most sense of all the biblical evidence when we put it together.
Anand: If I can just add to what Arvind said with an illustration, which I find very helpful, and then I want to share another thought on incarnation.
Let me start with illustration to add to what Arvind said. You know, if I mix red and green, I get the colour yellow. The incarnation is not like that. It’s not that the divine nature and the human nature mixed to create a third nature. No, that’s not the incarnation. I think I find it helpful to see the incarnation as a red cord and a green cord being eternally woven together into one cord eternally. That is two natures, one person. I find this very helpful to reflect on the incarnation
The second thing, in a personal lot, is the verse in Matthew Chapter 1, where the wise men follow the star and find the child Jesus and the Bible uses the phrase, “they fell down and worshipped him”.
In that one moment, I think that moment really captures the incarnation, because in that one moment Christ the child, was completely vulnerable and yet, absolutely worthy of worship. And that really captures the incarnation. Fully God, fully man, both at the same time. And I find this something that really draws my heart to worship.
Is There Anything We may be Missing About the Incarnation?
Akshay: Yeah. The incarnation is fascinating, right? And that really captures the heart of it- that God has become a human being, he has become one of us. And the natural [and] appropriate response is worship and wonder, that how could a God like him become like one of us? It is a truly incredible thing.
I just wonder if this idea of God becoming one of us, is there anything that we’re missing in our appreciation of the incarnation? Are we too familiar with it? Is there something that’s kind of lost in all of our thinking about it?
Anand: In my very, very, early days as a follower of Christ, I subconsciously was assuming that God became man for a few years and then when Christ ascended, he went back to heaven and he became God again. Subconsciously I was kind of assuming that.
Pretty soon, in my Christian walk, when I began to understand the incarnation is eternal. It was not just for a few years that Christ was here on Earth. When Christ ascended, after his death and resurrection, he ascended in bodily form, in flesh and blood.
And so when I realised that when God took on flesh, he took on flesh for eternity, forevermore. And that that really draws me to worship. That God would condescend to the degree that he takes on humanity for eternity. So the incarnation is eternal.
Not only does it draw me to worship, it also gives me great hope because now humanity has a representative at the right hand of the Father, in God the Son. And so it gives me great hope [that] humanity is represented, and Christ becomes a mediator as the book of Hebrews, so beautifully invites us to see and enjoy.
Arvind: Yeah, I think that that’s beautiful, Anand. Just the fact that at that moment of the first Christmas, the creator becomes like the created. That the creator enters into creation, that the eternal enters into time, that God becomes a man. You know some people have said that it’s the greatest miracle of all. Even greater than the creation of the universe, or even the death or resurrection of Christ. And that’s worth meditating on.
I think there’s some real merit to that. Because everything that Jesus does is based on his person- who he is. His miracles, his teaching, everything that he does, even his dying and rising really get their meaning from the fact that he really is the God man- God who’s come in the flesh.
It actually makes me think of the time when I first held my first child. Such a tiny child, I’ve never been very comfortable holding babies, let alone newborn babies, let alone a child that’s like 15 seconds old or something like that. But you know, just to think that all of who God is- the divine nature, just coming into such a small little package. It is overwhelming to just imagine, to believe that this is really true. This is what happened. Christmas is certainly the greatest miracle of all!
Akshay: I think that is the beautiful thing about the incarnation. I mean, God has become so vulnerable and so woundable that he’s visible to us as a baby, you know? Is there anything more vulnerable than a baby? Anything more woundable than a baby? It’s a beautiful thing. And this is what I love about the incarnation is that, imagine if you will, for a second, that there is a God and that he is out there. He’s not content to remain out there. He has decided to interrupt history and has decided to write himself into human history.
And it reminds me of Agatha Christie, you know. She is my comfort reading. She has a character in her novels called Ariadne Oliver, who is also a detective story fiction writer, and she becomes friends with Hercule Poirot, who is a creation of Agatha Christie. And it’s almost as if she has written herself into the story, she was writing so that she can be friends with the character that she has created. But Agatha Christie herself says that this character, though is from real life, only has a strong dash of herself. Like just a little bit of herself.
But the incarnation tells us that in Jesus, in this person being made an appearance as a man, the fullness of God is visible to us. Colossians actually says [that] in Christ the fullness of God lives in bodily form. So everything we need to know about God, everything that God wants us to know about himself is in the face of Christ. So if you want to know what God is like, you take a long hard look at Jesus.
Reminds me of this Christmas play I heard about where Joseph, who is the legal father of Jesus in the gospel story, he takes up this baby Jesus, and it’s a poignant moment in the play where he’s standing in front of the audience, the spotlight is on him. He’s looking at this baby and he says out loud, “I wonder what your father looks like”. And it’s a beautiful image because the incarnation tells us that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, and I think that’s just beautiful.
Anand: Yeah, I think Hebrews 1:3 captures that beautifully, Akshay. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.
Akshay: It’s just an extraordinary claim that the Bible is making that God has intervened in human history, become one of us so that we can become like.
What is Unique About the Incarnation?
Let’s talk a little bit more about the uniqueness of the incarnation. What about it do you think is unique in human history or religious thought?
Anand: In one sense, the idea of incarnation itself is there in religious thoughts in different cultures. But Christ is unique, the incarnation of Christ is absolutely unique. And the one thing that I would immediately pick on is the sinless nature of Christ, at birth and all his life.
In every other religious or cultural understanding of incarnation, God incarnate is never sinless, in other religious thought[s]. It’s only [in] the Bible that we see, at his incarnation Christ was sinless at birth, conceived of a virgin, not being corrupted by human seed since Adam’s fall. So born of a virgin, and also tempted in every way, just as we are, and yet without sin. The sinlessness of Christ is really unique, it stands out. No other religious thought claims that anywhere in human history.
Arvind: Yeah, just adding on to that, the fact that Jesus comes sinless not to judge or to attack or to kill sinners, but he comes to atone for sin. He comes to die himself for sin. He comes not to judge, but to be judged, you could say, by his creation. And not to kill, but to be killed. Not to be served, but to serve, and to give his life- quite a remarkable fact! Just the purpose of why Christ came to this earth and why he was incarnated in in human flesh.
Akshay: So in one sense, the birth of Christ only makes sense when you remember the death of Christ. That he is actually born to die. And it’s not just that he’s died for our sins. I think sometimes what we miss out on in the incarnation is that Jesus died for our sins but he also lived for our righteousness. I mean, he’s lived the life that we could not live. So in this body he’s faced all the temptations that we face, that we give into. But he remained faithful and he’s been tested in every way and stood the test that we have never been able to stand.
And that life, that perfect life is also an offering. It’s not just his body offered on the cross. It’s the whole life of righteousness and obedience to God that he has lived for our sakes. And he’s a substitute in our in his death, he’s also substitute in his life. It’s a necessary and beautiful gift that we have received in Christ
What Can We Be Doing to More Appreciate the Incarnation?
So let’s think about this with regards to just churches and Christians, what can we be doing more to appreciate the magnitude of the incarnation?
Anand: You know, that kind of goes back to where we began this podcast with. Where Arvind was talking about how theologians use what may seem to us as heavy words. I think churches shouldn’t be afraid of theology. The mystery and the wonder of incarnation can never be captured and understood and appreciated and enjoyed fully unless we really get into understanding the doctrine of incarnation. Going back to the Chalcedonian Creed, for example, is a beautiful thing we could do in our Christmas service. Most churches may never have read it, you know. It took me many years in my walk with Christ before I came across this and read and understood and benefited from it. So one way I think, churches should really take time to appreciate and to look at all of the doctrinal aspects.
The chance of error here is very high. As Akshay was sharing earlier, there were lot of controversies. And, you know, subconsciously quite a few people might be assuming, might have a lack of precision in understanding the doctrine of incarnation. So going back to it, I think that that will be something wonderful for local churches to do in this season.
Arvind: I think for me as a pastor and for us as a church, I’ve been realizing that Christmas presents a unique time to share the gospel with people who haven’t heard of Christ. So people are eager [and] I think that we want to take advantage of. People are eager to come into church. They’re eager to sing songs. And you know those kinds of things, it’s easy to invite people.
I think the danger is, and we’ve been realizing this a little bit the last couple of years especially, is that we as believers and followers of Christ, we kind of miss the incarnation a little bit. We get a good dose of the death and the resurrection of Christ at Easter and of course, throughout the year.
But I think in the midst of the busyness of outreach at Christmas we just tend to stick with that, even in our Christmas services or Sunday services, catering to just the unbelievers.
So yeah, just wanting to get back to, going deeper as believers into our own faith and understanding the incarnation. In fact, just last Tuesday, in our prayer meeting, I was encouraging our church to pray for revival.
You know that this would be a time of revival for us as Christians who know Christ and have believed in the gospel, that we would just be recaptured with the wonder of the incarnation of Christmas itself.
One thing that we also started last year is that we started a little Carol night just for volunteers who are helping with this big Christmas program that we put on Christmas Day, normally every year. But on Christmas Eve, just for the volunteers to have a Carol night just for ourselves. Just to be able to contemplate and appreciate and be encouraged of the fact of the incarnation.
I think that that is a big temptation for us as a church and something that we’re trying to avoid and do something about.
Akshay: Even when you think about the incarnation and that God sent his son, I think it’s also important to tie that to the fact that the Son sends the Spirit.
So not only has God become a human being, but he’s done that so that the Son can send the Spirit into our bodies and our bodies can become dwelling places of God.
And I think that’s just an incredibly healing thing to hear because our bodies are so fragile, they’re so vulnerable and weak and powerless. You know, that’s the real problem with the human body. We don’t have power over our own urges, over our own appetites. And so God has done the best thing he can do for our bodies- he sent us his Spirit. So we become dwelling places of God.
For us to as Christians, as churches, just to know that we are no longer powerless, we are no longer alone. Those are the two lies that we often believe in our life that I’m alone and I can’t do what is meant for me to do.
Following the incarnation, we have become receivers of God’s spirit through his Son, and I think that’s real reason for hope. These frail bodies can actually be filled with the power of God’s spirit.
Anand: Yeah, that’s very helpful. Akshay. If I look at the farewell discourse in the book of John, Jesus while introducing the Holy Spirit to his disciples says [that] when I go, I will send another comforter or another counselor. The implication being that he is the first comforter. When he ascends after his death and resurrection, he’s going to send another comforter. So in a sense, it’s that continuation, the way Jesus introduces the Holy Spirit and the thought that our frail human bodies become a temple of God’s Holy Spirit because of what Christ did for us, beautiful thought!
Arvind: Yeah, the fact that Jesus took on a human nature so that we could become partakers of a divine nature. Just the amazing promise, whatever, exactly that means, that’s just stunning.
How Does the Incarnation Inform the Way Churches Serve People?
Akshay: Now, we have the Father who sends the Son, we have the Son who sends the Spirit and then the Spirit sends the church. So as we think about the incarnation and this sending impulse, how does the incarnation inform the way churches can think about being sent into the world and being sent into our neighborhoods? How does that play out?
Anand: Yeah, I think it is really helpful to keep remembering the incarnation when we are on mission. Just as Christ reached out, he came into our world, he entered our world. He didn’t preach the gospel from heaven. And even when he entered our world, he went to the most unlikely places.
He’s so often criticized for being with sinners, for being with tax collectors, for being with prostitutes. And I think generally most churches, we always go into a default mode of “come to us, come to us. Come to the sanitized place of a church where we can be on mission to you” But the incarnation really corrects that wrong impulse in us. It sends us out to go into the uncomfortable places. To enter their world, to understand their worldview and communicate the gospel to them in a way that’s contextual to them. I think the incarnation must really inform our mission.
Arvind: I totally agree with what Anand shared there. I know that sometimes we may have some concern about using the word incarnational when it comes to ministry and I completely understand that incarnation is a unique thing and yet at the same time, you know, there is a pattern there. I think that’s what Paul is also talking about in 1 Corinthians Ch 9, when he says that he became like all men so that he can save as many as possible.
So you know the pattern of Christ becoming like us, and like Anand said, Christ going everywhere where people were, not just kind of hovering above the earth or something like that, or staying in heaven but coming down. Again just to repeat, engaging deeply with the people that were trying to reach, and understanding their hopes and dreams and fears and problems and worries, concerns and getting our hands dirty.
Of course there’s a tension there between wanting to be separate and in terms of holiness, not wanting to be like the world, and yet at the same time retaining that Christ like character and so on. But going in, you know, almost it makes me think of Christ being born, you know, into the darkness of a womb, even. Just going to the depths, if you want to put it that way. And you know the really the humility that that takes to go down and like Anand said, Christ associating with sinners, it would have been much easier for him to just kind of stay in the temple hobnobbing with the religious folks, having lots of nice theological discussions and so on. But he didn’t do that and I don’t think that we can be just doing that as well.
Akshay: Yeah, it’s beautiful
How Are You Personally Enjoying the Hope of the Incarnation?
Now let’s close with just a simple question that we can think about, because the hope of the incarnation, it’s both cosmic, it affects the whole world, but it’s also personal. It’s something you enjoy in your own heart, it’s something that gives you hope so, how are you enjoying the hope of the Incarnation this season?
Arvind: You know, for the last year or so, I’ve been thinking a lot about the person of Christ, especially reading books like Gentle and Lowly and other books that really talk about who Christ is. I’m looking forward and already begun, just thinking about the incarnation, particularly in terms of the person of Christ. What does it mean for who Jesus is? And especially like I said, the humility of Christ to come down to this earth to save a sinner like me, being a sinless spotless lamb of God, who gave himself for me and came down to this earth for me. So yeah, I wanted to kind of continue to think about those things and see how they affect me and my life.
Anand: For me, for the past, I think few years, every Christmas season, I just come to a place of wonder, the wonder that God would take on flesh eternally, forever, you know, always draws me to worship. So when I think of the incarnation, I immediately think that this is forever. That God took on flesh forever. He took on humanity forever. And that really invites me to an intimacy with God through Christ. And that’s something I guess I’ll cherish and celebrate and worship God for all my life and then beyond.
Akshay: What I’m enjoying is that the birth of Christ means that I’m born again. You know, it means that I have new birth and I have new life. I keep thinking about the Spirit of God living in us as a seal, that he’s a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance, you know?
I mean, I think about everything that’s changing and shifting in life and everything that can be lost, everything that can drift away or everything that can change. But this one thing can never change- that I belong to Jesus, that I belong to the body of Christ. And that’s an incredible thing that I am sealed by his Spirit. He will one day present me to God with great joy and I would be welcomed with joy. That’s an incredible hope for anytime of the year but this Christmas season is just an incredible gift to think that the birth of Christ means that I am born again. There’s so much to look forward to, so I’m really grateful.
Well, it’s been great having you guys to chat about this and reflect on the incarnation, and for everyone who’s listening. I hope you truly have a Christ centered, spirit filled God glorifying Christmas and Merry Christmas to you all.
