In this honest and hope-filled episode, we speak with Ray Ortlund about his latest book, Good News at Rock Bottom. Drawing from his personal experiences with betrayal, grief, and renewal, Ray reflects on the healing power of the gospel for those who feel weary, trapped, and alone.
The good news of Jesus truly becomes good news in the worst times and the darkest places of our lives. With Ray, we explore themes of grief, betrayal, forgiveness, reconciliation, the epidemic of loneliness, and how the local church can be a place of real grace and deep healing.
Transcript
Host: Welcome, everyone, to this episode of the Gospel Coalition India podcast. We’re so excited today to be speaking with Rev. Ray Ortlund. Ray, it’s a pleasure to have you with us—this afternoon your time, and just past midnight for us.
Ray Ortlund: It’s a privilege to be with you and all our friends who are listening. Thank you.
Host: You’ve written a number of books, you’ve been in ministry for around 45 years, and you’ve been married to Jenny for—what is it now—55 years?
Ray: Yes, 55 years.
Host: That’s incredible. You’ve also co-hosted a wonderful podcast, You’re Not Crazy, which has been a breath of fresh air for weary pastors—truly a lifeline of hope. And now we’re thrilled about your new book, Good News at Rock Bottom. It’s such an encouraging read. What I love about your books is that they feel less like reading and more like listening to a friend. You have this unique gift of making the good news actually feel like good news.
So let me begin with this: How important is it to you that the good news feels like good news? And what do you hope readers feel as they encounter this book?
Ray: That question goes right to the heart of it. Every day we’re bombarded by false promises—seductive, glittering lies that break our hearts when they fail. And we’ve all been there. My deepest desire for this book is that broken-hearted people—like you, like me—would dare to hope again. That they would stop and be quiet before a true promise from God. He never breaks His word. And we, who have so often gone down wrong paths, are the very ones He loves, the ones to whom He gives His promises. The gospel allows us to dare to hope again.
Host: That idea—daring to hope—is so powerful. It’s courageous, especially for those who’ve hit rock bottom. Tell us: What did rock bottom feel like for you? And how do you look back on it now?
Ray: That’s a great question. Years ago, I entered into a partnership with people who made promises they didn’t keep. It was devastating. When Christians give their hearts to one another in trust, and that trust is betrayed, the wound is deep. There’s disillusionment, confusion, even terror. Looking back, two things stand out. First, grief—real, ongoing grief. It’s unresolved, and I wish I could say otherwise. Second, gratitude. My life had been too easy for too long. That experience gave me a deeper empathy for others. It made me a better pastor. And for that, I’m grateful.
Host: We’re grateful, too, because your empathy comes through so strongly in your ministry. I love how you show that grief and gratitude can coexist. That’s profound. You also write about betrayal in the book, something that many Indian Christians relate to. Suppose someone said, “I’ve been hurt and betrayed by leaders I trusted. I’ll still attend church because I love Jesus, but they’ll never get the best of me again.” What’s good news for someone like that?
Ray: First, thank you for articulating that so well. Two things come to mind. First: Jesus will never leave you nor forsake you. He has no hidden agenda. His love is completely unconditional. He won’t back out of His relationship with us.
Second—and this is hard—we can’t go through life without giving our hearts away. Even if we’ve been hurt, we are called to love again. That’s what love does. It risks vulnerability.
Host: That reminds me of C.S. Lewis. He said that to love is to be vulnerable, and to avoid love is to build your life inside a self-made tomb. It’s a slow death.
Let’s talk about forgiveness and reconciliation. Sometimes people conflate the two. Say someone says, “I’ve forgiven someone who deeply hurt me. I want nothing but God’s best for them. But they haven’t acknowledged the harm or changed. Do I have to reconcile?” How would you respond?
Ray: A very relevant question. Forgiveness has two levels. At the heart level, we are called to forgive unconditionally and immediately. That’s for our own healing. But relational forgiveness—restoring the relationship—is conditional. In Luke 17:3, Jesus says, “If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.”
John Stott said forgiving an unrepentant person isn’t love, it’s sentimentality. So yes, we forgive in our hearts, but restoration of trust requires repentance.
Host: Right. And your book is a meditation on Isaiah 57:15. Let me read it: “For thus says the One who is high and lifted up… I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit…”
What drew your heart to this verse?
Ray: It’s a verse of deep, God-centred hope. We all want to know we have a future worth reaching for. Isaiah 57:15 promises that—even for the crushed and contrite. And because the hope is God-centred, it’s not something we earn; it’s grace-given. Often, it’s our own fault that we’re in a low place. But that’s where we find God.
Host: One of your chapters is called “Trapped.” Let’s say a pastor says, “I’ve struggled with something for years. Every week I feel like an imposter. I can’t tell anyone. I feel like I’m bleeding to death alone.” What would you say?
Ray: I’d say: Run—not walk—to a trustworthy Christian friend and tell them everything. James 5:16 says, “Confess your sins to one another… that you may be healed.” Confession to God is vital, but confessing to another person breaks the power of shame. That’s how freedom begins. That’s real Christian fellowship—not when we impress each other, but when we are honest in safe, prayerful relationships.
Host: That’s been my experience, too. Shame loses its power in the light of honest friendship. And the church plays a big role in that. So, what’s the worst way a local church can respond to someone at rock bottom? And what’s the best?
Ray: The worst? Pretending. Minimising the pain. Maintaining a culture of appearances. That helps no one.
The best? When someone opens up, we respond with deep listening, patience, and prayer. We make that moment matter. We give them control over how much they want to share. And we follow up. That kind of love is transformative.
Host: That’s beautiful. I also wanted to talk about your chapter on loneliness. In India—and globally—it’s an epidemic, despite our technological connectedness. What are we doing to perpetuate it, and how can we rediscover true community?
Ray: The same is true here in the U.S. One thing we can do is deeply accept loneliness when it comes. It’s not permanent. But in that season, receive it as a hard gift from the Lord. It makes us tender. It prepares us to care for others. And in our loneliness, the Lord draws near. That’s a powerful grace.
Host: That’s a hopeful way to view it. Let me end with this. I saw you posted a photo of your coffin. In India, that’s almost unthinkable—death is taboo. But you’ve clearly embraced it. How are you thinking about death in light of Easter?
Ray: My dad died some years ago, beautifully, with faith and peace. That brought death close to me. Now, I’m the older generation. I miss him, but I’ll see him soon.
Paul said in 2 Timothy 4, “The time of my departure has come.” Not obliteration—departure. We’re moving from this world to one of light and joy. When we step into the Lord’s presence, I imagine Him saying, “Would you like a hug?” Until then, I want to do all the good I can, and live with my bags packed. That’s why I’ve planned my funeral. I’m ready.
Host: Well, we hope it’s not anytime soon. But thank you for your ministry, your wisdom, and your faithfulness. It gives young pastors like me hope for the road ahead.
Ray: You encourage me. You stayed up half the night to do this. Way to go, brother. Let’s keep going.
Host: One last question: What are you enjoying about Jesus right now?
Ray: His Word. In this chaotic world, I sit with the Bible—Psalms, Romans, Exodus—and feel calm enter my heart. I feel sane again. Hope rises. I’m taking notes, I’m praying, I’m just so grateful.
Host: Thank you, Ray. It’s been a joy to hear your heart. God bless you.
Ray: Thank you for having me. God bless you mightily.
