In this episode, Akshay Rajkumar is joined by Matt Smethurst—author of Tim Keller on the Christian Life—and Indian pastor-teacher Arv B to discuss Matt’s new book on the life, teaching, and legacy of Timothy Keller. Together, they explore Keller’s distinctive approach to gospel-centred preaching, his vision for the Christian life, and his profound influence on their ministries and hearts.
The conversation moves from Keller’s insights on adoption, idolatry, and suffering, to the joy of gospel-centred living in a world driven by cause-and-effect, moral performance metrics, and self-justifying strategies. It also offers a rare glimpse into the reception of Keller’s theology in the Indian context, engaging with common questions about the Holy Spirit, moralism, and the nature of preaching.
Whether you are new to Keller or have enjoyed his voice for decades, this conversation will help you fall more in love with Jesus.
Highlights
- 00:00 – Introduction: Meet Matt, Arv B, and the heart behind the conversation
- 01:12 – Why this book now?: Synthesising Keller’s best teaching
- 03:00 – Personal reflections: How Keller changed our lives
- 05:00 – Friendship, fatherhood, and sonship in Keller’s theology
- 07:05 – Humility and visibility: Keller’s pastoral presence in NYC
- 11:40 – One Hero: Why gospel-centred preaching matters
- 14:00 – What happens when we don’t read the Bible as a Jesus book?
- 19:15 – The role of the Holy Spirit in gospel preaching
- 23:00 – Excavating sin: Why Keller’s idolatry lens is deeply biblical
- 29:00 – Personal transformation: How Keller’s teaching sanctified us
- 35:00 – The “Three Ways to Live”: Keller on younger and elder brothers
- 42:00 – Duty vs. Grace in the Indian heart
- 46:20 – The Painful Gift: Keller on suffering, joy, and finishing well
- 50:30 – What we miss most: Grieving with gospel hope
About Matt Smethurst
Matt Smethurst is a pastor in Richmond, Virginia, a former managing editor at The Gospel Coalition, and author of several books including Before You Open Your Bible and Deacons. His newest book, Tim Keller on the Christian Life, distills the essence of Keller’s 50 years of gospel-centred teaching.
Transcript of the Conversation
Akshay
Welcome, everyone. Today I’m joined by Matt Smethurst and Arvind. I’m very excited to have this conversation about Matt’s new book, Keller on the Christian Life. Matt is a pastor, author, and longtime editor at The Gospel Coalition. He’s written books like Before You Open Your Bible, Deacons, and now this new book, which synthesizes and distils Tim Keller’s best teaching on the Christian life.
Matt is married to Meghan, and they have five young children. Whether you’re new to Keller or a longtime reader, we really hope this conversation helps you fall in love with Jesus—that’s what Keller wrote, preached, and lived for. That’s also our heart’s desire as we talk today.
I’m also joined this evening by Arvind, a pastor and teacher passionate about helping people know, love, and follow Jesus. He’s spent many years serving the church, teaching theology, and training leaders. He’s married to Carissa, and they have four children.
Matt, I’d love to start by reflecting on the aim of your book, which is to synthesise and distil Keller’s best teaching on the Christian life. Tell us more about that.
Matt
Thanks for having me on—it’s good to be with you both. I wasn’t trying to write a traditional biography or a critical evaluation of Keller’s legacy. I wanted to highlight the very best of his teaching over nearly 50 years on the everyday topics of Christian living. That’s where I think Keller’s teaching is often least known and least appreciated.
People often associate him with cultural analysis or apologetics, which are important. But I think his best work is found in what we call the “bread and butter” topics of ordinary Christian life. I didn’t just draw from his books; I went deep into his sermons—listened to hundreds—and referenced many of them.
Akshay
Yes, I noticed your book has about 50 pages of notes! That must have involved a lot of research and listening. So, for both of you—Matt and Arvind—in what ways has Keller’s teaching shaped your own Christian life?
Matt
There are many ways I could answer that—in a sense, the book itself is my answer. These are the teachings that resonated most with my heart. But above all, his vision is that the gospel is not just the good news that gets us into the kingdom, but the very key to growing in it.
Keller once said, “The gospel is not the ABCs of Christianity, it’s the A to Z.” That revolutionised my perspective. I realized we need gospel grace daily, not just for salvation but for sanctification.
Arvind
Absolutely. Keller’s teaching has been so broad and insightful. It’s hard to think of an area of life where he hasn’t helped me in some way. One area that stands out for me is marriage. His series on marriage, which I believe was one of his most popular, profoundly shaped our marriage—among many other things.
Akshay
I feel the same. His teaching has deeply penetrated my life and ministry. I was especially drawn to the chapter on friendship. At first, I wondered why the book didn’t have a chapter on marriage—but then I read the one on friendship. You say Tim and Kathy’s friendship was one of the most formative spiritual influences on his life.
I’ve always looked for a father figure in preachers. I went from one to another until I found Keller. Through his teaching, I realised he was pointing me to my true Father. My sense of sonship deepened. He was the last preacher I looked to as a father, and then he helped me see Christ as my brother.
He wasn’t a celebrity in my mind; he taught me what it means to be a true child of God—loved, accepted, and secure.
Matt
That’s beautiful. It reminds me of something Keller once said about adoption. He asked, “Who would ever dare to wake up a king at 3 a.m. for a glass of water? Only his child.” That’s the kind of access we have to our Father.
Akshay
Exactly. Once that truth takes hold of your heart, it changes everything. It’s also interesting that this is only the second book I know of about Keller. Colin Hansen’s was the first—and neither is really about Keller himself. Colin’s book is about the influences on Keller. Yours is about Keller’s teaching. That, in itself, reflects something about Keller. He knew how to be both visible and invisible—drawing attention not to himself, but to Christ. That’s a rare and beautiful thing. Do you want to reflect on that?
Matt
Sure. I think of something from the beginning of his ministry, and something from the very end.
At the beginning, Redeemer Church in New York resolved not to engage in typical publicity. They didn’t want to just attract Christians from other churches. They wanted to reach skeptics—especially late modern skeptics in Manhattan. So Redeemer’s services were intentionally simple. No hype, no flash—just traditional, reverent, Reformed worship. And Keller’s preaching style wasn’t theatrical—it was conversational.
Then, at the very end of his life, he recorded a video message for the Redeemer churches, which was scheduled to be shown on May 19, 2023—the very day he passed away. In that message, he said: “Genesis 11 tells us that people go to the city to make a name for themselves. Ministers do that too. But don’t make ministry success your identity. Don’t make getting a big name your main thing. Lift up Jesus’ name. Hallowed be Thy name. Forget yourself. Forget your reputation. Do what you can to lift up God’s name.”
Akshay
I won’t add to that.
Arvind
Yes. I had the chance to meet him a few times and attend Redeemer. Just like Matt said, everything was simple and humble, not flashy or loud. You could be standing around after a session, and you wouldn’t even know that he was Tim Keller. He was always asking questions, deflecting attention from himself. It was so refreshing, especially for someone of his stature.
Akshay
With that in mind, let’s dive into the book. Matt, you begin with a chapter called “One Hero.” Why did you start there? It’s about gospel-centred preaching—something Keller exemplified. Tell us why this matters.
Matt
Because for Keller—and for us if we’re doing things right—the Bible is the foundation for everything. So it made sense to begin with how Keller used Scripture to showcase the beauty of Jesus.
As you said, the gospel isn’t something we tack on to the end of a sermon to check a box. It should animate our hearts throughout preparation and be what we bring people into contact with when we preach. Jesus is the solution to people’s deepest fears, hopes, and longings.
Keller always tried to show how cultural narratives, human stories, and our heart’s deepest desires all find their fulfillment in Christ. Every substitute saviour will leave us dry. Only Jesus can satisfy and save. That’s why the chapter—and the book—begins there.
And to be clear, this isn’t just for preachers. All of us need to read the Bible with Jesus as the hero.
Akshay
Let me follow up—what happens when we don’t read the Bible that way? You quote Keller in the book saying there are two ways to read the Bible: as if it’s all about you, or as if it’s all about him. And that they are radically different approaches. What’s at stake?
Arvind
It’s a huge shift. When we don’t read the Bible with Christ at the centre, the focus turns to us and our performance. That leads to pride, guilt, and anxiety. It becomes moralistic and legalistic. Christ is no longer exalted.
What’s amazing about Keller is how, even in short talks, he’d always bring Christ in—sometimes almost miraculously. And it never felt forced or formulaic. It was fresh, unique, and always led to worship.
Akshay
Yes. And we’re not celebrating something Keller invented. This isn’t a new trend. Gospel-centered preaching is how the Bible wants to be read and preached. Matt, your book shows that clearly.
Matt
Exactly. If we forget that the Bible is all about Jesus, we’ll not only be anxious—we’ll be exhausted. We’ll be trying to create our own identity and security, which only Jesus can provide.
The gospel is counterintuitively freeing. In an age of busyness, it reminds us that God works on his own timetable. Look at Job—it’s long. That length mirrors how long suffering often feels. But when we take the long view, we can trust God’s plan and pursue lasting fruit.
Akshay
Thank you. Let me raise something I’ve heard, especially in India: When people hear gospel-centered preaching, they sometimes ask, “Where’s the Holy Spirit?” They feel like it’s all about Jesus. So how is the Trinity honored in gospel preaching?
Matt
That’s a great question. Keller said the Holy Spirit is the “shy member” of the Trinity. His role is to shine the spotlight on Christ. Jesus himself says this in the Gospel of John.
So ironically, the Spirit is honored when we focus on Jesus. Sometimes people think that the Spirit only shows up through certain preaching styles or spontaneous moments. But the Spirit is omnipotent—he can guide a preacher on Monday just as much as on Sunday. Preparing well doesn’t mean you’re less Spirit-led.
Arvind
Yes, I’ve heard that too—and not just in India. There’s a narrowing of the Spirit’s work to emotional expressions or charismatic gifts. But we can do nothing that bears fruit apart from the Spirit. Unfortunately, some equate “Spirit-filled” with a particular vocabulary or atmosphere. That’s a shallow view.
Akshay
Let’s dive into the second chapter of your book, Matt. It’s titled Excavating Sin. You describe how, at first, Keller’s teaching on idolatry felt a little too soft or simplistic. But then you realised he was taking sin even more seriously than you had imagined. You wrote, “I assumed Keller’s description of sin, clothed in the urbane language of idolatry, was a bit simplistic.” Tell us about how your understanding evolved.
Matt
This was many years ago, but I used to think that real courage in preaching meant saying, “God is holy, you are a lawbreaker.” And Keller did say that—but he also reframed it. He helped me see that sin isn’t just lawbreaking. It’s misdirected love. It’s giving our hearts to things that don’t deserve them.
Sin is a worship disorder. It’s not soft—it’s deeply biblical. Keller showed that idolatry is a way of confronting sin at its root. He often drew on Augustine, who said sin is disordered love. The problem isn’t that we love things too much—it’s that we don’t love God most.
If you love your career or child, or spouse too much, that love becomes ultimate. And when something ultimate is threatened or lost, it doesn’t just make you sad—it devastates you. That’s how Keller described idolatry: a good thing turned into a god thing.
Akshay
Yes. In the book, you say, “Idolatry is always the reason we ever do anything wrong.” It’s the sin beneath the sin. Arvind, what are your thoughts?
Arvind
It’s especially interesting to think about this in a place like India, where physical idols are everywhere. But beneath those, there’s still the deeper problem—what we love most. Sin isn’t just about behaviour. It’s about the heart. That understanding has profoundly changed me.
It’s also helped in how I teach holiness and repentance. For years at our church, I’ve seen people’s affections change. That’s the real fruit. Keller’s categories helped us move beyond rule-keeping to heart transformation.
Akshay
Recently, I was talking with a group about one of the most comforting—and offensive—verses in the Bible: 1 John 5:21, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols.”
It feels offensive because we assume idolatry is someone else’s problem. But John is speaking to Christians. It assumes our hearts are idol factories. If we’re not actively loving the true God, we’ll love cheap imitations.
It’s a new anthropology. Human beings aren’t just rational creatures—we’re lovers. We’re ruled by what we desire. And we’re safest when we love God most. Even good things—beautiful things God gave us—can become destructive if they displace him.
Matt, how has this view shaped your own walk with Christ?
Matt
It’s helped me receive criticism without falling apart—and helped me disappoint people without being crushed. Now, I don’t always handle it perfectly. But I remember this quote about Jonathan Edwards: “His happiness was out of the reach of his enemies.” That’s what I want.
I want to be so secure in Jesus that I can be misunderstood, fail, even sin—and not have an identity crisis. Because I was never meant to be omniscient or omnipresent. And when I fail as a pastor, I remind my people that I’m not God—I just point to the One who is.
At the end of the day, my worth isn’t in being a pastor or an author. It’s in being a beloved son of God. That’s the most important thing about me. The second is being a husband and father. I’m a sheep before I’m a shepherd. And that’s what Keller’s gospel-saturated view of the heart keeps teaching me—again and again.
Arvind
Same here. Growing up, I read a lot of biographies of “great” people. I wanted to be one of them—do something big and be remembered. That desire didn’t change when I entered ministry. In fact, it just hid under spiritual language.
You can seek glory through church growth just as much as through a business empire. The same anxieties remain—people-pleasing, overwork, a hunger for recognition. And unless the idols are exposed and repented of, nothing really changes.
Keller gave us a language—and a lens—to do that work. And like Matt said, it’s not a one-time process. It’s daily, even moment-by-moment. Asking: What am I loving here more than Jesus? That question has shaped how I relate to my family, my church, and my own heart.
Akshay
Yes. Keller used to say, “You never outgrow your need for the gospel.” And that’s been true for me. Instead of just managing behavior or “fixing” sin, I started paying attention to what was behind it. What I love, what I fear, what I trust.
This became especially real in marriage. My wife and I had a hard start. But learning about idols of the heart changed us. We started asking, “Why did I react like that?” or “Why did I say that?” We realised—we were asking each other to be messiahs. That’s too much for any human.
Keller showed us: we were made to love Jesus most. And when he is central, everything else—including marriage—falls into its proper place.
Matt, one of Keller’s most well-known ideas is his “three ways to live” paradigm. Tell us about that.
Matt
Sure. Imagine two people sitting side by side at church—singing the same songs, hearing the same sermon. One is there out of joy in response to grace. The other is there trying to earn God’s favour. On the outside, they look the same. But inside, one is living by the gospel. The other is lost.
Keller often said, “There’s one way to be saved, but two ways to be lost.” The obvious way is irreligion—defying God, living however you want. But the more dangerous way is religion—trying to control God by being good.
He drew this out beautifully from the parable of the prodigal sons. We think it’s about the younger brother. But Jesus told that story to the Pharisees. The real punchline is the older brother—he refuses to come into the feast because he thinks he’s too good.
People need to hear that both rebellion and moralism are paths away from God. Keller loved this old Puritan image: “At the end of my life, I piled up all my bad works and all my good works—and fled them both to Christ.”
Arvind
Yes. And that’s especially important in India. Works righteousness is baked into our culture—karma, merit, and earning. So when people hear “be good,” they assume that’s Christianity.
Even in Sunday school, kids are told: obey your parents, memorize verses, be disciplined. And we promise them blessing in return. But that’s not just non-gospel—it’s anti-gospel. It trains them to trust their own righteousness.
Keller helped us see that clearly. And once your eyes are open to it, you see it all over the New Testament.
Akshay
In some ways, being an older brother is even more spiritually dangerous. Religious people often respond, “How dare you suggest my relationship with God isn’t right? I’m always at church!” But Jesus says: that’s not the point. Good enough isn’t good enough. There is no “good enough.”
Matt, why do you think it’s harder to repent of righteousness than to repent of sin?
Matt
Because we’re more tempted to take pride in what we do right, even our theology can become a source of self-righteousness. John Owen once said, “Self-righteousness can feed on doctrines as well as works.”
Martin Lloyd-Jones said, “Half the time I’m telling people to care more about doctrine. The other half, I’m reminding them that doctrine alone isn’t enough.” That’s the tension Keller captured so well.
And back to karma—it’s one of the devil’s greatest tricks. He convinces people that karma is better than grace. That getting what you deserve is better than someone else getting what you deserve.
But the gospel says: in the courtroom of God, the criminal trial becomes an adoption ceremony. Justification says, “You’re righteous.” Adoption says, “You’re mine.” God doesn’t just acquit us—he welcomes us into his family. Forever.
Akshay
That’s a good segue into the final chapter of your book, Matt—on suffering. You say that Keller’s suffering taught you how to suffer. What did you mean by that?
Matt
I was a junior in college when I first read Walking with God through Pain and Suffering. At the time, I had no significant suffering of my own, but the book floored me. It gave me a theological category and vocabulary for future suffering. And over time, it helped me walk with others through theirs.
In his final years, Keller didn’t just write about suffering—he lived it. And he did so with joy. You could see it in his interviews, in the way he prayed, and in how he spoke about the gospel. He wasn’t clinging to comfort. He was clinging to Christ.
One thing that struck me was his response to people who said, “You’re going to beat this cancer.” He would say, “Well, I already have. I just don’t know yet whether I’ll beat it temporarily or permanently.” That’s resurrection hope. He really believed that death had lost its sting.
Arvind
That’s so powerful. I remember watching those final interviews. There was such calm in his voice—such steadiness. It wasn’t denial or bravado. It was hope. Quiet, settled, durable hope.
And he didn’t try to explain away suffering. He just bore witness to a deeper joy. I think Keller showed us that you don’t need to understand suffering to endure it. You need a Person. And Keller kept pointing us to Him.
Akshay
That’s right. He called suffering a “painful gift.” I’ve come to see that Keller’s teaching on suffering isn’t just something to pull out in a crisis. It’s part of a robust theology of the Christian life. It prepares you to die well—and to live well.
And now that he’s gone, we grieve. But we don’t grieve like those who have no hope. I think of that beautiful scene at the end of The Lord of the Rings, where Sam asks, “Is everything sad going to come untrue?” That’s the kind of hope Keller gave us—biblical hope.
Matt
Yes. And you know, I’ve heard several people say, “I miss him like I would miss a father.” That’s how deeply he affected people—many of whom never met him. It reminds me of something Paul said: “You have many teachers, but not many fathers.” Keller was both.
And what made him a father wasn’t his intellect—it was his affection. He loved people. He loved Jesus. And he helped others love Him, too.
Akshay
I think that’s what we all miss most. He made it possible to believe that you could be brilliant and humble. Faithful and fruitful. Serious and joyful. He modelled gospel maturity.
Arvind, any final thoughts?
Arvind
Just gratitude. Gratitude for a man who helped me—and thousands of others—see the gospel more clearly. Live more faithfully. Love more deeply.
We often say, “Don’t put anyone on a pedestal.” And of course, Keller wasn’t perfect. But I think we should honour people who point us to Christ. And Keller did that consistently. He wasn’t the light, but he was a really good lampstand.
Akshay
Amen. Matt, thank you for writing this book. And thank you both for this conversation. I hope everyone listening is drawn closer to Jesus—the One Keller loved, preached, and now sees face to face.
